The Genius of Juicy Conversation

In this episode we’ll explore what makes for juicy conversation with Abby Dare and Johannah Scarlet – two exceptionally talented conversationalists. Abby is a water colorist, community facilitator, and comedian who co-owns The Meadows Gallery & Studios. Johannah (also known as Joh) works in the commercial and film industry, and moonlights as an esoteric leader and tarot reader. You’re going to want to hear what this unique triad has to say about life on the edge [of the Wilderness]! 

Show notes: 

Boundary Waters Connect sponsors the Wilderness Edge Podcast.  

You can join the conversation, too! Consider enrollling in Let's Talk About Talking: Tools for Everyday Communication, an Ely Folk School class taught by Abby Dare.  

Learn more about our guest Abby Dare by visiting her personal website, Abby-Dare.com, or the website for the art gallerty and studios she co-owns in downtown Ely, The Meadows Gallery & Studios 

Learn more about our guest Johannah Scarlet by visiting her personal website, Sacred Saturdaze Outpost, or her film & commercial production website, johannahscarlet.com. 

Ely enthusiasts may recall hearing from Abby and Joh when they were guests on the What's Up Ely Podcast, a project that was produced by Visit Ely. You can find those epidoes here: What’s Up Ely Podcast: Facilitator, Community Builder, Comedian Abby Dare and What’s Up Ely Podcast: Modern Mysticism in Ely with Johannah Scarlet. 

Transcript

Abby Dare 0:08

It feels easy right now to lean on the phrase we don't have to agree on everything. I feel like I say that all the time, and I think that we've almost lost touch with what we're really trying to say, or there's a little bit more to it. Maybe like another prompt is let's find out what we do agree on. Like do some like harvesting and being curious and like, okay, what's step two? Now that we understand we don't have to agree on everything, the next phase is I want to know way more about you. And I want to find places we do agree. Because I think there's a lot. Because probably there is a lot. Yes. Yes.

Lacey Squier 0:48

Welcome to the Wilderness Edge Podcast, a podcast for people who are curious about communities on the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. Join me, Lacey, for Juicy Conversations with area residents and all who have a heart home up north. We offer dialogue about what gives northeastern Minnesota the edge, as well as some real talk about the sometimes sharp edges of living in remote and rural locations. In this episode, we'll explore what makes for juicy conversation with Abby Dare and Johanna Scarlett as we all consider what makes for exceptionally quality conversation. Abby Dare is a watercolorist, community facilitator, and comedian who owns the Meadows Gallery and Studios in Ely. Johanna, also known as Joh, works in the commercial and film industry and moonlights as an esoteric leader and tarot reader. You're gonna want to hear what this unique triad has to say about life on the edge. Welcome, ladies. Hello, hello, hello. It's so exciting to have you here. It is. I feel it too, for sure. Back in Brett Ross's Boreal Roots Media Studio. Let's go. It's a good spot to be.

Brett Ross 2:06

Welcome all.

Lacey Squier 2:07

Thank you.

Brett Ross 2:08

Great to have you here.

Lacey Squier 2:09

He's got a hot mic.

Johannah Scarlet 2:11

Thank you for hosting the space.

Brett Ross 2:13

Always a pleasure to have you here.

Lacey Squier 2:15

I wonder if you'd be willing to say a little bit more about yourselves, introduce yourselves to our listeners, um, and add any commentary you want to about what I was able to share in the intro.

Abby Dare 2:30

Yeah. Well, I'll go first.

Introducing Abby

Abby Dare 2:33

I'm Abby. And I moved up to this area in 2012 and spent 11 years working at the Voyager Hour Bound School, which is down Spruce Road. And also is kind of a different planet. It's its own community, it's its own, it has all of its own stuff. And so I was very much at that base camp, which is um lovingly called Home Place. Um so I lived there and worked there for 11 years and spent a lot of time in the woods with teenagers and a lot of time in the woods with my coworkers, and um had a really beautiful learning experience there for a long time. And uh one really enjoyable part of that lifestyle is long breaks. You're on for 30 days and off for 30 days, or you know, however it kind of works. And I spent a lot of time writing notes and getting into illustration and watercolor while I had that time off. And so I kind of pursued watercoloring as something I really enjoy doing, and uh I've continued to do it it stuck with me the past several years. So that's been fun, and I'm now teaching classes and inviting people into my my flow in watercolor world.

Lacey Squier 3:52

And you recently had like an exhibit, right? Like an exhibition?

Abby Dare 3:57

Yes, yeah. Me and Whitney Woods had a little art show at the at the meadows, and mine were all watercolor, uh, which was a fun, fun presentation of my lot of fun. It was a great showing. Yeah, yes, it was called My Year of Suffering. And it was a sad show about grief and hardship. Um, but anybody who came in and saw it was struck by it, but also was smiling and wanted to talk about it and was happy to see it. And I mean, we got handshakes and hugs saying thank you for sharing. Uh so that was a really powerful, really loving community art show. I really liked that.

Lacey Squier 4:34

Um I didn't realize that your your craft goes so far back as your Voyager outward-bound school days.

Abby Dare 4:43

Yeah, I think I was just looking for some hobbies and started watercoloring and just scribbling stuff and writing notes to people. There's a lot of strong trail note culture, trail mail culture in those worlds, and so it's always fun to give people something nice, or I have memories of seeing something, like seeing a beautiful sunset or seeing how the light was reflecting on water, and thinking to myself, when I get home, I'm gonna attempt to capture that in a watercolor painting. No guarantees on the outcome, but I'm gonna try. So that's been fun. And yeah, kind of another part of that is I've just done a lot of public speaking with all those groups. Um, I really enjoy that, and I also enjoy being silly. And so I've done a little comedy in my life and uh done some stand-up routines. I'm part of an improv club, and that is a really powerful tool for me too, to keep learning about myself and having fun, which is really important for everybody. Yes. So yeah, that's kind of what I'm up to and and where I where I've been coming from. Ugh, so nice to meet you. You too.

Johannah Scarlet 5:55

Isn't Abby amazing? So cool, so dynamic.

Abby Dare 5:58

So cool, so dynamic.

Lacey Squier 6:01

Here on here on Earth. Well, you're leading the way. I mean, that's like genuinely inspiring to bear witness to you doing that. And as like a a member in this community, I see it, I feel it, I'm inspired, I'm like motivated to be a little bit more silly and a little bit more artful and a little bit more instructive and facilitate even more tenderly. You know, you you you're out there doing it, we see it. Yeah, it's motivating.

Abby Dare 6:28

Yeah. I have a couple of really positive memories this last year in the local politics scene, which was stressful for me. But I would go present at city council and I would intentionally add a couple jokes into these kind of serious conversations. You have to. But I would just try to add, yeah, just a little bit, and it would also help me gauge if people were listening. Because they were like pretty funny, silly little quick jokes. But I but people were listening. I'd see them smile or chuckle, and I'd be like, Okay, they're listening. I don't know what's gonna happen. Yep, but I do know they're listening to me, which is a good piece of feedback to get while you're speaking from your heart.

Lacey Squier 7:08

Yeah, you know, what a clever way to do that. Yeah, just a little some summon in there. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll circle back

Introducing Joh

Lacey Squier 7:14

to that. Okay. I'm confident. Yeah, yeah.

Johannah Scarlet 7:16

Joh, let's please introduce yourself. Hello, hello. My name is Joh. Um, I uh moved up to Ely, I would say part-time. We found Ely during the pandemic. Uh, we were living in the Twin Cities and uh started coming up north and uh fell in love pretty quickly with Ely, found a little cabin, and uh slowly took about three years to get up here living full-time. Three, almost four years. Um I'm originally from Detroit, have beepbopped around the Midwest from Detroit, Chicago, Minneapolis, but finally landed in Ely at the end of 2023, beginning of 2024. And um the pandemic really allowed myself and my partner to come up here and work remotely. Um I work my my son job, my son day job is uh in the film and commercial industry as a producer, uh working on TV commercials and then also uh in the film industry, trying to bring films up to northern Minnesota. Uh, but then being in Ely, it has completely expanded what my a lot of my passions are in the unseen, the esoteric, the mystical, the magical, the woo. Um, and it's been really fun uh connecting in nature in that way, but really connecting to the people of Ely in that way. Um I, especially during the pandemic and with uh traveling a lot, a lot of my um tarot readings were virtual. But since I've moved to Ely, pretty much all my tarot readings have been in person.

Abby Dare 8:58

Nice.

Johannah Scarlet 8:58

Local to the Ely community. I still do some virtual, but um, my uh clientele, the amazing people and friends that I've been making have uh been sort of widespread from you know, women and men from their, you know, 30s all the way up to their 60s, 70s. Um, it's been a really sort of beautiful experience. And um I think people up here are really open to it, um, maybe even still a little hesitant or uh, you know, magic curious, you know, a little bit. And I think Ely lends itself to that because of its nature, um, because of this sp this place being um so beautiful. Um, like Abby, what you were saying, seeing a sunset that is just so uh-inspiring, so magical that um it puts you in the present moment, makes you realize how life is so beautiful and so precious that it really sort of drops you in and um can make you just really appreciate uh the beautiful moments that we can have, that we can share with others. Um, and that can sometimes dissipate a lot of the noise that we end up dealing with. Um, so that's sort of backtracking into in tarot, it allows me to be really present with people and to have really deep conversations with people, which I'm really grateful for. Um, and allows people to open up. It's hard to open up these days. It's sometimes harder to connect these days. And tarot is a tool that allows me to do that. Um, and it's also um one of the ways that you know allows me to just yeah, help reach out to people. The language that I use, one of the languages that I use.

Lacey Squier 10:51

I remember being out at your place, Joh, which is kind of out in the wilderness, right? Well, it's in the forest, I guess you would say.

Johannah Scarlet 10:59

A little outside of town.

Lacey Squier 11:00

Yeah. And going from your place outside onto the frozen lake and looking up at the night sky. And, you know, the boundary waters canoe area wilderness is one of 13 international dark sky sanctuaries. Yes. And we were able to see the stars so vibrantly. And you were pointing out like planets to me. Yeah. I was like, what? We can see planets. I mean, I'm I'm such a novice in the world of you know, interpreting the stars and and knowledgeably, knowingly kind of contemplating the night sky.

Johannah Scarlet 11:36

It's the best show on earth.

Lacey Squier 11:38

It's the best show on earth. And I love that you say that because I do want to take a moment to, you know, to share for listeners to this podcast. If any of this sounds familiar, you if you followed along with the What's Up Ely podcast, you very likely got to meet Joh and Abby already. Um, and if for listeners who haven't, we'll put in the show notes the links to the What's Up Ely podcast episode facilitator, community builder, comedian Abby Dare. And Modern Mysticism in Ely with Johanna Scarlett.

Johannah Scarlet 12:12

Yeah.

Introducing Lacey, Wilderness Edge Podcast Host

Lacey Squier 12:13

And it occurs to me, I maybe should introduce myself because this is a new podcast. Please do it. Please do. Oh my goodness. Well, my name is Lacey Squire, and I I manage Boundary Waters Connect, which is an economic and community development project of Northeastern Minnesotans for Wilderness. That's a nonprofit that has been based in the Ely area since the 90s, but I think more folks will be familiar with uh its kind of flagship project, which is Save the Boundary Waters. And so donors to Save the Boundary Waters. Um, I'm so grateful because some of what they have given to Northeastern Minnesotans for Wilderness and that organization in general is applied to Boundary Waters Connect. And the work that I'm doing with my colleague Jess Kulik to contribute positively to the community and the economy. And we've been based in Ealy, but in earnest, we do seek to make positive contributions to communities all along the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness. And I've been doing this work for I'm in my fifth year now, and it's a really natural fit because my background is in higher education and fostering kind of learning through extracurricular engagement among college students. And maybe that doesn't sound like a natural fit, but in reality it is, because so much of my work is building and fostering community. Because there's a lot of research that shows that communities, rural communities, greater Minnesota communities can um the phrase that is used is like spiral up. Like we can go, we can get on a growth trajectory. Um, and the first steps is to foster like social capital. And what that means is just community connections. But the profound power of knowing each other is applies in so many arenas of life, right? It's good for us individually, it's good for us on a community level, and interestingly enough, it's good for our economies. Um, and there's this you can break it down to like social capital, you know, it can be bonding capital, like how tight are you? And it can be bridging capital, like how well are you connecting across silos? And we know that silos happen, like it's not a dirty word, but but it can become a dirty word if you have no overlap in your like Venn diagrams and you have no bridging that's happening. So, anyways, I'm I've the work is very vocational for me, and this podcast is a part of that. Um, but I'm also you know an instructor at the Ely Folk School. I love I'm a word nerd. Love it. I'm a writer, I'm a pie maker, and and a lot of things, but but I'm also someone who you know, social relationships are so important to me. And I remember moving to Ely and it took me, I moved here in in January of 2019. And I think in part because of the pandemic and the closure era of life, like it just it takes a long time to make friends. And I mean, it takes you can make a friend, and you can you can have an acquaintance, you can have a hundred acquaintances, you can have some really close friends, you can have someone you'll make plans with. But I knew all along that what I was really looking for was what you would what I in my head call nothing friends. People with whom you do nothing. And I knew all along that that kind of that's like a slumber party friend, you know? Yes. And probably one of my greatest like achievements in life personally was getting to the point where I could invite the two of you over to have a slumber party. Totally. And it took seven years. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yes. Like some of the work of Boundary Waters Connect, you know, we have this program called Hello Neighbor, which is connecting residents. And that can be connecting new residents to established residents. Like it's just kind of taking your work hat off, being a person in a community and having connections because we know that's good for people and the community, right? And like I think really hard about how to foster new friendships. And even with all of that knowledge and all of that theoretical background and even kind of doing the work with my work hat on, it still took seven years. But wasn't it fun? Absolutely. It's totally worth it. Have I introduced myself adequately? Well, of course, of course. Um I also was the host of the What's Up Ely podcast. So that's how I have an intimate knowledge of the conversations we had when we were having those experiences together. Um

What makes for a quality conversation?

Lacey Squier 17:03

and one of my goals for the Wilderness Edge podcast and for this conversation in general is to kind of explore like what makes a conversation a quality conversation. You know, you know me, I love the phrase juicy. Like, what's a juicy conversation? You know? Yeah. And I feel like you two are people in my life with whom I have some of the juiciest conversations. Uh, an honor. Cool. Yes. Um and Abby, you you have had this kind of unique, you've been on a unique journey lately as it relates to conversation. Yes.

Abby Dare 17:48

Yes, yes, yes.

Lacey Squier 17:49

Do you know what I'm talking about?

Abby Dare 17:51

Well, yes, I do. Will you tell us? Yes, and I'll start saying some things. And if you want me to get more specific, you just let me know. Okay, great. Because I think conversations are super interesting. And I think that they if you're gonna have a conversation, you also if you're gonna have to if you're gonna talk about conversations, you also have to talk about relationships. And both of those things in in that same realm are very nuanced, and there's so many directions you can go in a relationship or in a conversation. And we all do it really differently. Like there's no um, there's it's not common in school that we all go through like a conversational relationship class. It it happens, those classes do exist, those schools exist, and some people get that education. I wish I did. Yeah, but not but it's not it's not like a standardized test or you know, and again, that like picks at a little bit of the thread of how should school work? Right, you know. Yeah, yeah. Um uh but yeah, so I think a lot about the mechanics of conversations and and how it works between people who are coming into that conversation from really different places uh and have really different skill sets and assumptions about how to have a conversation. Um and so yeah, some some work with outward bound is was really informative of remembering that communication is a skill and it and you can learn how to do it, and there are tools, and it's a skill like any other skill, and so and like the first time you try it, try something new. It might feel really funny to try something new in your communication or in your conversation. I really like the visual of like imagine me running and doing a front hand spring right now, and I don't really know how to do a front hand spring. So, so for me, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try. I think I know, I think I get it. And you guys could probably see that in me too of like, whoa, was that a cartwheel? You know, whatever. But I just say that because I think if you're trying to become a better communicator or conversationalist, there are mechanics and there are tools and there are ways of doing it. There's not one way of doing it, but it might feel really uncomfortable the first time you try something different to connect with somebody. But if you want to learn how to do a front hand spring, it's gonna take more than one try. Right. It's gonna take a lot of practice. You're allowed to be a beginner. Yes.

Lacey Squier 20:40

You're allowed to be a beginner.

Abby Dare 20:42

So that's something that I really appreciate just in from some parts of my life. And then most recently I joined a cohort um called Invitas uh with this poet and essayist David White. And it's all around this topic of conversational leadership. Um, and it's been really lovely for me to have all of this, all these ideas in my mind of of what I gathered at my time in facilitating with Outward Bound, and now to be introduced to something new. Um, and especially now I'm not at Outward Bound, I'm in a whole different life for myself, and I'm communicating with different people and different parties and different institutions and trying to um, you know, have my own impact on the world and to have uh have this cohort of connection and and have some new new ideas has been really great. Um and I'd be happy to to kind of talk through those or just give give a dose of them, um, whatever whatever you see fit.

Lacey Squier 21:46

I would love to hear, yeah, I would like what are s what are some of the the tenets that have stuck out to you? Yeah. Like I know there are multiple, and I don't know that we need to go through all of them, but like what are you getting out of that experience so far? What's really resonant?

Abby Dare 22:01

Yeah. I think um it has helped me a lot. It's a very personal thing. Going to this conversational leadership thing, it's a very experiential education process. So we're being taught a model and we could share it with others, but we're also experiencing it ourselves, which is really powerful. And it so it you can flip back and forth to thinking about your conversations with other people and external conversations, but it just as powerful to think about your internal conversations and how much you talk, what you know about yourself, what you know about the world. Those are all conversations. And so um, one way to kind of frame this is conversational leadership, this whole in vitess program is how how can we change the narrative? How can we affect the world positively? Um, it's very creative and and full of artistry.

Start from a quiet place (and more tips for great conversation)

Abby Dare 22:58

And the first step, just to kind of drop us in, is to stop the conversations you're having. So if you're in a spot in your life where you're like, ah, there's a lot of resistance here, I don't know what to do with this. Should I try this? Should I try this? I have tried this, I have tried this. It's like step one, stop.

Johannah Scarlet 23:18

And that seems like such like not the I would I wouldn't expect that to be step one.

Lacey Squier 23:24

Right. It's not it's not intuitive when you first hear it. And then you're also kind of like, oh yeah, like start from a place of silence.

Abby Dare 23:33

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And when I dropped into that, it was comical how it made me feel once I was really invited into that. Because it it felt like 10 million conversations stopped that I didn't even know I was having. It like having this invitation to like you don't have you can just stop. It was like this domino effect of quiet. And it really helped me realize how many conversations I was having, all these narratives going on externally and internally. So that's a really nice way to start. Um, and I'll just mention a couple other ones.

Lacey Squier 24:11

Wait, can I pop in real quick?

Abby Dare 24:12

Please. Yeah.

Lacey Squier 24:14

I something you said, Joh, earlier about like how this place where we live um offers a certain kind of a a quality of quiet. And it was I was reminded that yes, we're an international dark sky sanctuary, excuse me, but we also are the Boundary Waters is recognized as one of very few um quiet places. Definitely. And I don't remember exactly as well the particular language of the designation, but there's only something like 50 places in the world with the caliber of quiet that you can access in the wilderness that we live along the edge of.

Abby Dare 24:58

Yeah.

Lacey Squier 24:59

And so I do I just wanted to take a moment to linger there on the if the first step is to stop the conversation you're having. It seems to imply like taking a beat in that quiet place.

Abby Dare 25:12

Oh, big time. I just watched a quick interview with Dave and Amy Freeman, who were talking about their year in the wilderness, and they were just mentioning that they spent a whole year out there, they never went inside, etc., etc. And they were three-quarters of the way through their year and were still feeling sensory changes, like hearing more and smelling more. Like their bodies were so inundated with so much, and they were out in this very quiet place, and it took months and months and months for this massive recalibration to happen. Attunement, yes, yes. But it's interesting because the second step, well, quick side note these aren't a linear series of steps. This is totally spiralized, circular, you can jump around, but it's I'll present them in this in this way. Um, but this the second stop on this journey is make a friend of the unknown.

Johannah Scarlet 26:09

Yeah. So Joh does that. That's like Joh's wiggling. I'm wiggling over here. Yes. Yeah. A relationship to the unknown. It doesn't have to be based in fear, it doesn't have to be based in anxiety, it can be based in curiosity, it can be based in a lot of different things that can be a whole different type of relationship.

Abby Dare 26:29

Right. And I think kind of what you're speaking to in some ways is when you're when you stop the conversation, it can feel really scary and feel like you need to start it pretty quick here again. Like, okay, okay, so I stopped. What's what's what do I do next? Let's go. But then but it's like, no, no, actually, just just hang out here for a while. Yeah. Just don't know for a while.

Lacey Squier 26:52

The irony of me almost cutting you off because I'm so eager to say the next thing. But we're in the like guest welcome packet for the Wilderness Sag podcast, and something I believe is really true is that one of the most pleasurable things about conversation and dialogue is that we cannot predict where it will go. I don't get to say, right? I can't enter this conversation with you all and say, and then I'm gonna do this, and then you're gonna do that, and then I'm gonna do this. Like we're creating something organic and we don't know exactly where conversation will go.

Abby Dare 27:23

Yeah. And if you feel fear around that, if if not knowing where a conversation or a relationship is gonna go causes lots of stress, which is totally normal. And and I think we're in an age where lots of people are feeling kind of socially stressed, then like if you don't have the tools to manage that, then conversations can fizzle out really fast. And same with that relationship. If you've if you're in fight or flight when a conversation begins because you don't know where it's gonna go, then you're the conversation is either gonna go to fight or flight. Right. And that's not very pleasurable. Right, right. And and I'll add, one one workshop we did in this N VTUS series was recognizing that a really well-rested body is the is the is the most useful tool in changing conversations. And we were even offered this time to go rest before having a conversation. Like go find a way to have a profoundly 40 minutes of rest, uh, profoundly restful, if you will. And hands down, 100%, I know that I came back and had a different conversation than I would have if I had not taken that rest. It was super fascinating. Wow. Yes. Yes. That's awesome. Um and yeah, I mean, I just think it it it just for me anyway, my experience is I recognize so much how stressed I am and and my nervous system is is working on over in overdrive so often for me. And so if I'm struggling in conversation, if I'm struggling in getting my point across, if I'm struggling in relationships, it's been really useful to know that I I need to go rest. I need to go calm down in a big, big way for me to feel like I have agency again in how I'm having that conversation.

Lacey Squier 29:14

And maybe you can do that in 40 minutes. Yes. Yes. Or it doesn't have to be rest as in like reset my life. It's like go take a rest.

Johannah Scarlet 29:22

Oh, go it can take allow, allow yourself to self-regulate. Allow yourself this time. It there's actually something called the window of tolerance when you are you become activated and you sort of exit out of this window of tolerance where your nervous system is in a natural state, you're breathing normally, you're in a relaxed zone, your energy is open, and you're able to have an open, natural dialogue. When you jump out of that, that's when you start getting into a fight, flight, freeze, fawn type situation. And so being first off able to even recognize that's what's happening. Right. Stop the conversation.

Abby Dare 30:05

Yeah.

Johannah Scarlet 30:06

Um, then being able to say, okay, do I have certain tools to help me try to regulate myself? And, you know, sometimes that does lead to some variables of unknown uh to try to then yeah, take a break, a rest, or relax to bring yourself back into a window of tolerance, to either re-enter back into that conversation or to yeah, set it aside until you're able to come back to it into a better mindset.

Abby Dare 30:34

Yeah. And again, I I'm just on this kick right now of just recognizing that we all are it's we're all on our own to figure this stuff out. But it feels like, and again, some people land a great mentor or family situation where you really learn a lot about that, and some people don't. And so I'm in a space where I really want to help facilitate that, not because I have it all nailed down, but because I recognize it and I can see it and I just want to share um for the sake of peace on earth, essentially. Um but I'll just throw a couple more of these steps at you and and um we can see what happens. But coming to ground to the unknown is kind of your settling, uh, moving into robust vulnerability and recognizing and asking for invisible and visible help, and just recognizing that you're not in this alone. Uh, where is the help that you need and where can you ask for it? Cultivating your own artistry in moving forward, what gift do I have that can take me to where I'm trying to go with this? Making the invitation, once you've kind of landed in all those areas, is like, what is the question I'm trying to ask? How can I bring you into this with me? Um and then finally is the harvest of presence of uh just really landing, landing somewhere with someone in that conversation. Uh and again, it's you know, that's not steps one through seven, that's just an all-encompassing series of ideas and concepts to consider all of the time.

Lacey Squier 32:18

I love like

Life on the edge as a philosophical experience

Lacey Squier 32:20

something, you know, the Wilderness Edge podcast has a lot of goals. Like we're I'm but one of them, one of them is I want to share with people who are curious about communities on the edge of the wilderness. Like I didn't expect Ely to be so profound of a philosophical experience, right? Like I was working in colleges and universities, I was a student. I would, you know, I was I went from grad program to grad program essentially, right? Like I have always been in very thoughtful places, but because I actively sought them out and put myself there in places that sort of define themselves as such. So I have been so delightfully surprised to find that all of that in me is more well tended for here than anywhere else I've ever been. And that's why I wanted the first episode to be about the juiciness of conversation in general, because that's my biggest, that's the biggest gift that life up north has given me is like these profoundly interesting conversations I'm having with a very broad range of people, right? Like I know that I brought you here today and that we are friends. But make no mistake, I'm having amazingly juicy conversations with strangers and acquaintances who we have a different, you know, a less intimate of a relationship, you know. Um, so that's a a little diversion, but Abby, okay, I think there's gonna be a good way to segue into hearing more from Joh. But if I may, I kind of want to read something. Please. Um, so Abby, you actually you're a fan of this poet and essayist and leader, David White. I sure am. And I had never heard of him. And so as our friendship was kind of taking off and getting more deep and real, you gifted me something.

Abby Dare 34:28

Yes. Consolations. The solace, nourishment, and underlying meaning of everyday words. A book of essays by David White.

Lacey Squier 34:38

So I have loved this gift, and I have um, I don't read it, you know, like maybe I'm I'm an avid reader, but something that's very important for me that other people understand is that I don't, I don't typically read books from start to finish. I don't often read all of a book, and something I love is picking up a book and just opening to a page. And one of the joys of this book is that it's just like ruminations on various words. And so, much like Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart, like I don't read this book from start to finish. I go looking for a word. What word do I want to explore? And I had been thinking about this podcast project and how I wanted to frame it. And I knew that I wanted to ruminate on the idea of the edge. And there's so much there, you know, the fecundity of the edge. It's so great, you know? Yes. And then I started a coworker led me to uh, you know, permacultureprinciples.com. And there's all this like really interesting stuff about how productive edges are in an ecosystem.

Abby Dare 35:49

Yeah, yeah.

Lacey Squier 35:49

You know what I mean? Like there's just so much there with the topic of edges. Yeah. And I was deep in um, we're gonna have to come back to this. But Joh, you loaned me the largest thesaurus I've ever seen in my entire life. And so I was like really deep in the thesaurus, looking up edges and peripheries. But I needed to take a break. I wanted to take a break. Sure. So I was gonna take a break, and I picked up consolations, and I decided, you know what? I want to read about the word genius. I'm gonna set edges aside, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna read about genius. Sure. Can I read an abridged version of this essay to you? Please, please, yes.

"Genius" excerpt from David Whyte (abridged)

Lacey Squier 36:33

Genius is, by its original definition, something we already possess. Genius is best understood in its foundational and ancient sense, describing the specific underlying quality of a given place, as in the Latin genus loci, the spirit of a place. It describes a form of meeting, of air and land and trees, perhaps a hillside, a cliff edge, a flowing stream, or a bridge across a river. It is the conversation of elements that make a place incarnate, fully itself. It is the breeze on our skin, the particular freshness and odors of the water or of the mountain or the sky in a given actual geographical realm. You could go to many other places in the world with a cliff edge, a stream, a bridge, but it would not have the particular spirit or characteristic, the ambiance or the climate of this particular meeting place. I love the idea of an edge as a meeting place, right? And then skipping ahead to the final paragraph. Genius is both a specific gift and a possibility that has not yet occurred. It is not a fixed internal commodity to be exploited and brought to the surface, but a conversation to be followed, deepened, understood, and celebrated. Genius is the meeting between inheritance and horizon, between what has been told and what can be told and what is yet to be told, because our practical abilities and our relationship to the gravitational mystery that pulls us on. Our genius is to understand and stand beneath the set of stars present at our birth, and from that place to seek the hidden singular star over the night horizon we did not know we were following. And my brain exploded because I was like, I knew we were gonna have this conversation. I had this beautiful gift from Abby. I opened up to the word genius and so much about this essay, which I did, folks, skip a couple pages of for the sake of not doing copyright infringement and you know, just having some abridgment. But like I opened it up to the genius page of this book that you gave me, Abby. I felt this essay was all about edges in its deepest form. Yeah. It related edges to a meeting place. It talked profoundly about conversation, and then it culminated in this thing that just screamed Johanna.

Speaker 5 39:13

Right.

Lacey Squier 39:13

Right.

Joh's Northstar Framework Workshop

Lacey Squier 39:14

And you Joh, part of what you've done for the community is bring your North Star framework to the community, which is all about standing beneath the set of stars present at our birth, and from that place seeking the hidden singular star over the night horizon and naming that which we didn't even know we were already following.

Johannah Scarlet 39:36

Yeah. Let's pull up your birth chart and figure out our intention for 2026. Like that's exactly let's go. What I did in my workshop in January.

Lacey Squier 39:46

And that's where I got this book, right? Yeah. You brought like I the word nerd in me sees the word nerd in you because you didn't know what I brought a dictionary. You brought you hosted this North Star Framework workshop to help people understand themselves better. And you brought like 400 books. I did. I didn't. And I never felt more like connected, you know, like, oh, I too bring emotional comfort books with me everywhere I go. I too can't teach a class at the Ely Folk School with having a box of books with me. Yes. So let me just put the ball in your court and hear what you have to say.

Johannah Scarlet 40:28

Well, with that reading, that beautiful reading of genius, you know, I closed my eyes as you were reading it because it it brought the sense of conjuring the elements together almost in a spell cast in order to create a place of meeting. And whether that is on an edge or all the different elements: air, earth, wind, fire, water, and spirit, ourselves underneath the stars to meet in a place to create genius, to create this moment. Um, that was like just such a beautiful, powerful reading of what the word genius means and the energy and magic around genius.

Lacey Squier 41:15

And it being place-based. Yes. Because I think you, Joh, like your story to me, your Ely story, to the extent that I have been able to absorb it and hear about it from you.

Living a place-based life

Lacey Squier 41:28

And a lot of us, what we share when we've made this place our home is a desire and a yearning for a place-based life because we understand how much uh comes to us from place.

Johannah Scarlet 41:42

Yes. Definitely, definitely. And even my part of my intention for 2026, through, you know, through my own workshop, through my own intention setting practice that I've done over the course of like the past 10 years for 2026 is to really connect more with home, more with Ely, the people in Ely, and more with the land and and being present here. Um so it's been, you know, part of that is making sure I'm going outside more, learning the trails, learning more about the history of this place, the original people of the land, um, and trying to spend more time here and being more integrated in Ely and the edges of Ely, you know, whether that's the different groups, the different layers of Ely, because Ely is uh complicated in a really beautiful way. Um, there's edges there in that. Um, there's edges throughout the nature here. Um, there's there's a lot to be said about Ely. Um, and even visiting, I just got back from New York. We were talking earlier about um sort of the quiet place that this can be. Uh coming from New York, visiting my in-laws and coming back to Ely. It was so quiet coming back home. And that peace and presence coming back home was so um welcoming again. Um yeah, it's just it's beautiful to be in Ely. Yeah. I don't know where I was going with that, but I just love being here.

Lacey Squier 43:21

Well, I don't know where anything is going, right? But I I do think that like it is an interesting segue into another part of conversation that I do want to touch on, which is just something I'm I'm driven by with this, with this project, which I do, you know, think of as a creative project, but hopefully a functional one. Not that creativity and function are opposed. My goodness, my goodness. Um but I I'm

Discussing our edges

Lacey Squier 43:48

sort of curious to play on this notion of edge, and and there's there's four thoughts that I have with that. Like, what do you think gives this place the edge? Like, what do you think is adverse?

Johannah Scarlet 44:00

advantageous or to the advantage of of living here and what do we think are the sharp edges what what's difficult what's acute um what's edgy like what's burgeoning and then like this question I haven't workshopped very well but like what richness are we perceiving at these edges right if we know that like in a in a in an ecological agricultural permacultural place like the richness is in the meeting places like what what is that and and maybe that's redundant to the like what's advantageous but you know this it's a yeah so it's this is my first time living in a small town so um you know coming from the Metro Detroit area living in you know growing up there living in Chicago living in the twin cities spending a lot of time in LA I've done sort of big city life suburbia life so this is sort of like my first small town experience and I see a lot of beauty in some of the edges here where there's actually a lot of ability to have more connection here uh more um deeper dialogue more opportunity and potential to have more dialogue more intimacy more vulnerability more opportunity to hold space with people if people are willing to have it and I think there's an edge there. I'm grateful for a lot of the people like you all that I've met and the people that I continue to meet through whether it's tarot readings whether it's through my workshops whether it's through doing films in northern Minnesota. And that's definitely something where I'm I'm meeting folks that do come from different walks of life not just from my you know witchy woo girlies that I'm meeting you know in my in my tarot workshops. Shout out to my witchy woo girlies to those girls um but I'm meeting a lot of people along the iron range that are coming from all walks of life that have the opportunity to work on film sets. And um having a film set is get gathering a full dynamic group of people working on a bunch of different departments um and trying to come together to make uh something happen, a creation of something and that's a lot of different personalities that's a lot of different types of people of all age ranges uh on a strict timeline deadline that's costing money. And so um trying to have and navigate a lot of different conversations and dynamics um through that um can create a lot of edges too, you know? And so I did a film last year called Small Town Girl, which uh shot in Hibbing Chisholm and some there are some Eliites that were a part of the crew which was a lot of fun. I'm trying to bring more films up to northern Minnesota uh this year too um but part of that process is learning how to sit in the discomfort of conversations and I'm still learning how to do that with friends with people that I am comfortable with in safe spaces and that's trying to just be more vulnerable with myself let alone people that I'm in a professional working relationship with trying to navigate navigate uh work dynamics on a on a workday or on a film set um I know I'm talking about a bunch of different levels but I think there's different ingredients when it comes to the edges of group dynamics within small communities. It's uh uh trying to have some like true listening happening trying to hold space even if there's discomfort and trying to be vulnerable in those spaces and hoping that the other person is willing to do the same um which is a lot to navigate all at once and especially since I don't think everybody knows how to do those things like you were mentioning Abby not everybody is coming from the same place or has the same tools right in order to do those types of things.

Lacey Squier 48:30

But in hearing you I'm I'm reminded and kind of reflecting on you know I I'm a fan of the the Clifton strengths finder tool from Gallup and it's it's part of my philosophy and approach to life and one of the truths is that your strengths are your weaknesses right and it's like I for me the that's like the advantage the edge what gives us the edge is this like intimacy here right or the the I think there's a word called propinquity which is we we just keep seeing each other because it's a small place. You know we're just like a a bunch of you know billiards in this small on this small table. And so we there's like intimacy that comes from the fact that we're together often but then the sharp edge is like the layers of those relationships and then you can't get away from them. Right. Or that's such a strong way of saying it can't get away from them. But truly like maybe in a more urban environment you could like be done with a work project and have a colleague that you butt heads with and just be like see you never good luck. But like we don't get to do that here. You can't really be anonymous right and that is like both the advantage and the sharp edge.

Johannah Scarlet 49:45

Yep it's both definitely yes so how do you keep that bridge open you know how do you what are those I

Keeping bridges open, finding common ground

Johannah Scarlet 49:56

think it it's it's becoming harder and harder especially in the in the current state of the affairs in general that when things are so divisive how do we keep how do we find common ground or still hold respect and values when there's so much noise and and again I I I keep coming back to this thing where I don't think people are willing to sit in the discomfort of having uncomfortable conversations and holding that discomfort without allowing whether it's like emotions coming up and that's okay you can have these emotions coming up but true two truths can sit at the table at the same time.

Lacey Squier 50:38

Yeah and actually I I was like oh we got to circle back to like what makes a juicy conversation and I think something that has helped me a lot and something that I think makes a juicy conversation is like let go of the idea that I'm trying to change your mind about anything or control anything. Like let someone like really listening and having no relationship to trying to adjust how a person thinks and just being awash with their perspective and and like accepting it as such. Like I I think because I think a juicy conversation includes the ability to share your perspective and have fun with it. Right. Like I want to I want to share my part so I want my turn and I want you to share your part.

Abby Dare 51:33

I want to take your turn I want you to have your turn and there's a time for debate but like a conversation and a debate are two different things right yeah that reminds me of just being aware of what type of conversation you're about to have and again kind of going back to the like mechanics and and just before we talk let's talk about talking even I think a nice I started going on walks a little bit differently. I've been I go out with my dogs regularly and sometimes I feel like I'm walking in a direction and I'm going on and out and back and I've got 42 minutes and boom boom boom march along. And then there are days where I don't have a timeline and we wander around and there isn't a destination and we're exploring and sometimes I follow my dogs and sometimes they follow me. And there's a time and a place for both of those walks. But it's just nice to know which one you're about to have. You know like if I if if me and my dogs are have different ideas on what's going to happen, there might be some conflict there. So I I I appreciate just going going through that because I do think again that's that's an area that we can all work on is hey I want to have a conversation with you and I just want to wander around with you. I'm not gonna convince you of anything and I would and but maybe I will and and vice versa you know what or you could also say hey I want to talk to you and I really would love to make my point clear I really feel strongly that I'd love to explain this thoroughly to you. Like are you are you open to that type of conversation? Right. Well and I think that can be really helpful.

Lacey Squier 53:17

Yeah I got excited again but I I think the phrase conversational consent is in my mind. You know it's like hey actually you said something that I disagree with is now an okay for time for me to share my perspective on that like a conversation can become a debate but you have to ask the other person if if they would if they're willing to engage in that. Right.

Johannah Scarlet 53:42

Are you available for this? Because if you're not even available for this, then this isn't even going to go well anyway. Good to know. Right. Let's put let's take a rain check.

Lacey Squier 53:50

Yeah and I just yeah like having a will like good conversation takes time like and I I get time is a finite resource so like surely everything can't be infinite but simultaneously it's true that we don't have to rush through this and I I'm a an occasional participant in the Braver Angels chapter here in town and it's like again it's it's not about persuading people and even if it were that takes so much trust and you're not gonna build that like that you can build a lot of trust in a 20 minute conversation a five minute conversation an hour long conversation but like ultimately if you actually are trying to persuade someone of something that's a really long that's a big endeavor. Yeah. Right. And so curiosity is going to get you so much farther than control.

Abby Dare 54:48

Yeah. Yeah I mean if somebody took their entire lifetime to develop their morals and opinions on things it might not take as that much time to undo those things but you can't expect someone to just on the flip of a coin change their mind. And so the curiosity about someone's life and how they got somewhere could be super helpful and informative forstanding the person that you're talking to. Right could be very illuminating.

The positive power of bearing witness

Johannah Scarlet 55:16

I think a lot of times folks just especially now just need to just want to be witnessed you know I think we just sort of want to be heard or listened to and holding space for that and sharing conversation. You know and again like two truths we don't have to necessarily agree on everything. We don't necessarily need to see eye to eye on everything but being able to just hold space for somebody else to be able to have that person to be able to share be witnessed and Abby you taught me this thank you for sharing thank you for listening you know like like through that that class of relationship to self and others being able to have healthy conversation in a way where it's not rushed um knowing that you don't have to have all the answers and sometimes people just need to be able to share parts of themselves and allow things to breathe allow things to actually be released in order to be witnessed and sometimes that might be uncomfortable but that just sort of needs to be happened that has has to happen sometimes you know and just that that alone is enough for somebody you know because that sometimes allows vulnerability and then we're getting on deeper levels with people instead of these more surface statements that are broad and scripted shallow allegations that aren't really in have any nuance and are just a little bit more yeah uh just shallow and just broad and yeah have no context to them.

Abby Dare 56:58

It feels easy right now to lean on the phrase uh we don't have to agree on everything and and it's I feel like I say that all the time and uh and and I think we we've almost lost touch with with what we're really trying to say or or there's m a little bit more to it because we don't have to agree on anything. It's like duh well right and maybe like another prompt is like let's find out what we do agree on. Well and you know let's like do some like harvesting and being curious and like uh 100% yeah and I just think I feel like that phrase is getting used a lot and I appreciate it. I get where it's coming from and I think we could like okay what's step two now that we understand we don't have to agree on everything the next phase is I want to know way more about you and I want to find places we do agree because I think there's lots of probably there is a lot.

Johannah Scarlet 57:50

Yes. Yes like we if we went back to the basics if we went back to the basics of just values morals yeah you know taking care of people making good food yeah going on walks yeah we like we all actually sort of agree on a lot of the same things we like nature we probably like nature in all our own ways but hey nature's pretty cool you know all of us we care about our families we care about our friends right which means we probably care about no not so much I always figure you know but like there's you know Brene Brown has a list of values you know there's there's so many values out there but like the the majority that we can probably agree on the majority of like some core ones and morals are more so like from right or wrong you know like respect others we probably all shouldn't steal stuff you know like there's things that like we can agree on on bare basics um that can allow us to just sort of say hey there there is a lot of common ground and that's right.

Lacey Squier 59:01

Oh sorry oh yeah no I did the thing do the thing but okay I listeners I was gonna set a timer for 45 minutes to try to keep us in check and I said it and then I deleted it. And now we're at an hour and we've gone past the threshold of what the internet says a podcast should be. We're just getting warmed up right no we're just getting warmed up but um maybe we'll we'll have to circle back. So but now this is last call this is last call on ref ruminations related to juicy conversations related to edges related to anything because this is an exchange that I'm not in control of right what would you like to contribute as a as a a final thought

Internal edges versus external edges; going forward versus going backward

Lacey Squier 59:45

I really liked the conversation around edges.

Abby Dare 59:49

And again I I see the internal edges and the external edges of of where we are, where I am and I love just imagining the visual of being on the edge of a cliff, on the edge of the ocean, because in front of you and behind you are really vast and intense and intricate and complex places. Looking out into the whole ocean and looking behind you to the whole continent of North America wherever you are wherever you are whatever edge it is and it could it could be Shagawa like anywhere but there's a lot and re being on that edge is really intense and I think that it's really nice to take the time to be in that transitional space and I also think it's important to recognize when you're ready to move off that edge and either either potentially turn around and go back no problem or to move forward into whatever is is lying ahead of you. And again that could be totally internal I I could be in my own edge in my own uh internal heart space if you will and making a choice about who I want to be and what I want to say and how I'm gonna impact my community um or it could be externally and and where I'm going and what I'm doing and and and all that jazz. But um there is one little uh stanza from another David White poem called The Bell and the Blackbird which is a really lovely lovely poem and just this is just the shortest blip I'd rec I'd recommend reading the whole thing but um there's moments where you're being asked to wake into this life or you're being invited deeper into the one that waits either way takes courage and I and I sense an edge for me internally living in this area and it's totally like internally and externally I'm feeling it in myself and in my community as I feel like it's time to find courage and and and decide something and just as a community I'm really ready to have those conversations and and choose whichever direction we'd like to go. And again it can be asking you to wake into this life or or uh sink deeper into a a different one that waits. And so there's there's options for us and I'm feeling inspired and compelled to be a part of that movement and and shifting gears and moving into a new conversation. It's beautiful thanks for listening.

Johannah Scarlet 1:02:40

Thank you for sharing

The Fool -- It's ok to be a beginner!

Johannah Scarlet 1:02:45

oh when I think of the edge edges um immediately I think of the tarot card the fool the fool in its traditional illustration you see a traveler with a knapsack across its shoulder a little dog nipping at its heels holding a flower about to start on a journey at a cliff's edge and the fool is literally sort of like looking up into the sun smile upon its face about to step off the cliff about to step on like on the precipice of a journey like a fool. And it's the zero card right it's the zero card the beginning it is the beginning it's okay to be a beginner it's okay to be a beginner and there's a there's a lot of things astrology astrologic astrologically astrologically wise um that we are in a very much beginner energy right now with Saturn and Aries with Neptune and Aries um it's okay to be a beginner and with that there is some of this lighthearted energy in it and with that edge lean in we are allowed to start anew we are allowed to take risks we have to be courageous we have to trust ourselves we have a knapsack filled with snacks we got our cute little dog Toto Lassie whoever it is with us we have our flower reminding us that we can be tender that we can be soft that life is precious and we are starting upon our next journey and the fool is a very beautiful card to just remind ourselves that we are allowed to start again that we can lean on this edge and it it can feel scary but I remind myself like whenever I have this sort of fear of an edge that's an indicator for me to lean in to not lean away because that is a moment where I am on a precipice of expansion and I there may be there there definitely isn't some unknown but that doesn't mean I have to welcome it with uncertainty or fear but I can be curious. Curiosity is a beautiful value for us to explore to ask questions to to ask why and to just be open and receptive and receptive and that's the energy that we should be taking into spring right now it's a beautiful time for us to be in that fool energy we are the fool on the journey of life and we can take that with us

Curiosity is the core of juicy conversation

Johannah Scarlet 1:05:36

and curiosity I think is the absolute core of juicy conversation yes good yes I like that that's a good little key to keep keep on you if you're feeling a little stuck be curious.

Lacey Squier 1:05:53

Be curious and and yeah I I want to have a whole another episode with you too on the topic of curiosity. Yeah I I want this conversation to go on forever. Um, and it will in its grandest sense, but maybe in a literal sense, it should end. Sure. But I don't like that. But but I'm at peace with it.

Abby Dare 1:06:12

As we must be. But it was it was really nice. It was really nice to get warmed up and get going. Thank you for having her. Yes. Yes.

Lacey Squier 1:06:22

Thank you for sharing.

Abby Dare 1:06:24

Yes. Thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing.

Lacey Squier 1:06:28

Thank you for listening all of the ways. Our very special guests, Abby Dare and Johanna Scarlett. What an honor to have you as a part of this initial cohort, the first guests of the Wilderness Edge podcast. Um, the Bilderness Edge Podcast is produced by Brett Ross of Boreal Roots Media and is brought to you by Boundary Waters Connect. Boundary Waters Connect is the economic and community development project of Northeastern Minnesotans for Wilderness, and you can learn more by visiting BoundaryWaters Connect.org. See you next time. See you next time. Woo woo.